Swordfish once again, so let's talk to Navantia.

Pending the decision of the program Miecznik, Navantia emphasizes the challenges and key aspects of the preparation of the offer for the Polish Navy. The Spanish shipyard, known for building modern ships, points to experience and proven projects as assets. However, as Juan de la Cueva points out, greater difficulties arose in meeting the expectations of the Polish defence industry. The discussion underlines the importance of cooperation, technology transfer and flexibility in integrating systems, which Navantia is willing to offer to meet the requirements of the Swordstick Programme.

Shipyard Portal (PS): Offers for the acquisition of swordfish vessels were transferred, in December 2021, by participating entities to the Ministry of National Defence. At the moment, all we have to do is wait for the announcement of the decision. Tell me what was more difficult at the stage of preparing the offer, meeting the operational requirements of the Navy or expectations of cooperation of the Polish defence industry?

Juan de la Cueva (JC) – Shipbuilding Commercial and Business Development Director – Navantia:

Naval Tactical and Technical Requirements they were not a particular problem for us because we have years of experience in the construction of modern warships, and in addition, we could benefit from a ready, proven project. For this reason, we knew perfectly well what we had to do and what the possibilities offered by Navantia to the individual were.

On the other hand, it can be that meeting all the detailed expectations of local industry is a bigger problem. This also involves the need to have the necessary time to build both understanding and mutual trust between partners. However, probably the hardest part of the process was to overcome the time constraints imposed by a very tight schedule.

Providing a comprehensive vessel offer to the Armed Forces Agency and an industrial cooperation offer to the PGZ War Shipyard was the biggest challenge of this stage. Since Navantia has delivered many, diverse ships to various foreign customers in the past, we knew exactly what to do, how to meet the client's expectations, both military and industrial, and how to implement the imposed requirements. Therefore, there was no problem with implementing requirements for the ship's offered design.

PS. Probably everyone has already asked about the tactical and technical parameters of the vessel being offered and they are quite widely known, so I will skip this element. On the other hand, I would like to find out what the process of reaching the point when the Orderer is offered a particular type of ship? For example, when the Spanish Armada (Marinarka War) comes to Navantia and says "we need a new ship".

JC. Ship design takes place at various stages and we carry out this process in close cooperation with the Spanish Navy. The fact of this long-term cooperation is probably the greatest benefit for Navanthia, as design and operational requirements are known to us at the same time as the Spanish Navy.

For our part, we supply our client, i.e. the Navy, with all the technical details required, including information on industrial capabilities, as well as data on developed systems or proposed solutions.

Thanks to this cooperation, at the moment when it comes to signing the contract, we understand very well what the expectations of the Ministry of Defence and the Navy are and what products they want. For us, Navantii, this is a key element of the process.

Such an approach also percentages in the future when we receive a request from a foreign customer. Thanks to the experience of working with the Spanish Navy and the Spanish Government, it is easier for us to understand from where such a demand comes from, rather than other requirements, as well as the expectations of a potential customer. This makes it easier for us to enter into the expectations of this customer.

We are also of the opinion that close cooperation with the Spanish maritime forces, and therefore knowledge of the expectations and requirements of the modern maritime battlefield, contributes to the increased competitiveness of Navanti in the international defence vessel market.

PS. As we know, in every conversation concerning modernisation programmes of Polish armed forces, the hot topic is the so-called "technology transfer". You were involved in the implementation of a ship project in Australia for several years. Tell us how these experiences can be translated into Polish and how this issue is seen by Navantia.

JC. Navantia understands "technology transfer" or "industrial cooperation" as supporting Polish authorities and Polish defence industry, in this case shipbuilding industry, in the construction of an "industrial ecosystem".

Shipbuilding is not just a possession the shipyard itself capable of building anything but creating an ecosystem that will allow both industry and the Navy to build the ship and maintain it throughout its life cycle. It is a model that we have developed in Spain, which aims to deliver the best quality product and which works in everyday activities.

In the case of Poland, this would be to ensure that both the ability to build modern, technologically advanced ships, as well as the future ability to provide ongoing technical support for ships and to ensure their full readiness to operate. So it's not just a transfer of knowledge or technology between Navantia and PGZ Stocznia Wojenna.

Navantia, implementing the project, brings with it all suppliers from Spain who will not only develop their local presence, but also establish cooperation with local subcontractors, as well as, in their competence, transfer knowledge and skills to local industry. So it is a question of building this ecosystem.

If we focus solely on the shipyard-yard relationship (which is indeed important), but at the same time we will skip the whole range of suppliers with their industrial capacity, then we will have a problem with the implementation of the entire work.

This is something that we successfully realized in Australia during the execution of the contract to build destroyers. We have achieved a very high level of participation of local industry, we have brought with us many leading companies of the world's arms industry that have established local branches and integrated many Australian companies into their technological processes and supply chains. Today, it can be clearly stated that the ship defence industry there is the key to the operational success of the Australian Navy.

PS. Let's focus on Navantia's combat management system. How does this system work on Spanish ships while using the American AEGIS system?

JC. CATIZ is an export version of the SCOMBA system which is installed on ships of the Spanish Navy. Navantia is authorized by the Spanish Ministry of Defence to install and export this system to foreign customers.

The system has open architecture and can integrate various domains, including defense against submarines, against submarines, against mine defense. The combat management system developed by Navantia SCOMBA is the result of a massive transfer of technology from the United States that took place in the 1990s and was associated with the acquisition, by the Spanish Navy, of the AEGIS system for the F-100 project.

Currently, SCOMBA is installed on most Spanish ships, both patrol vessels and frigates, as well as auxiliary units. The system will also be installed on the frigate of the future, or project F-110.

The export version of the system, i.e. CATIZ, has recently been sold to Saudi Arabia, and this transaction has also been accompanied by a technology transfer enabling further, independent development of the system and integration of newly acquired systems in the future.

The proposal for Poland is closely linked to the transfer of technology within this system. We're assuming that Polish Navy In the future, Poland will have its own combat management system that will evolve the CATIZ system. Therefore, we do not impose any restrictions because we recognise the evolution of our system as a kind of national system as a natural process.

PS. The question of technology transfer brings us to another question. In addition to the platform itself, Navantia also offers a number of its own systems to support the operation of the ship, such as an integrated navigation bridge system, platform management system or integrated communication systems. Meanwhile, some of these systems are in the offer of Polish producers. PGZ Stocznia Wojenna developed its own technologies to create integrated ship communication systems or integrated navigation bridge. How much is Navantii's offer open to Polish industrial partners?

JC. Navantii's offer is very clear and involves partnership. Wherever there is a requirement of Polish authorities or the need for local industry to integrate the Polish system or solution, Navantia will provide full support in such a way as to allow development and delivery of the product.

We feel comfortable in such a pattern of cooperation, because this is due to our experience. For example, in Australia we integrated a local platform and automation management system. A local logistics support system was introduced. We have also implemented local solutions for ship communication systems. Therefore, we will not have the slightest problem with cooperation with the Polish industry as regards the development and implementation of the local communication system, management or any other system, especially since we are fully aware that at the end of the programme it is not only about acquiring operational capabilities for maritime forces, but also local industrial capabilities.

This is a lesson we learned in Spain and therefore we do not force any solutions, because we understand that, to some extent, the Polish industry wants to copy what we did 20-30 years ago in the case of the Spanish shipbuilding industry.

PS. One of the key requirements of the Polish industry is the issue of the construction of ships of the Swordfish in the whole, in Polish shipyards. We know that different companies have different approaches to this problem. Some say that they would want the first unit to be built with them, and then there was a process of moving production, while others do not impose such restrictions. How does Navantia feel about this?

JC. In general, Navantia has no approach, because we will do exactly what the Polish government expects of us. Remember, we've built ships in Australia. We handed over the Australian shipyard project, and this one started building ships. If this is required by the Polish government, it is no difference to us whether it is 2 or 17,000 kilometres from Spain. So, as I said, the issue of the place of production is no problem for us.

PS. Let us assume that Navantia is announced as the company that will provide ships for Polish MW. What happens next day?

JC. Oh, it's pretty simple to describe. We collect a team of our best specialists, establish direct relations and channels of communication with partners in Poland and proceed to hard work. In short, the whole process will be carried out in accordance with the company's procedures and methodology of project management, and based on our many years of experience. In implementation there will be several processes simultaneously. At the outset, it will be the design, selection of suppliers, orders, development of plans and schedules, and most importantly, the launch of TOKAT, the entire process of transferring knowledge and transferring technology to Polish industry. And then, successively, we'll be entering the next stages of the project.

PS. Finally, let me ask you a simple but difficult question. What makes Navantia's offer the one that should be chosen?

JC. To be honest, we believe that we are distinguished by the design, or more specifically by the operational capabilities of the vessel offered. It is the best ship in its class among those in possession of the European NATO countries. It is also surgically proven because it has been in the ministry for a long time.

The second factor in favour of our offer is the low risk of project implementation. As I mentioned, the design is known and tested, the configuration of an integrated combat system also, hence the risk of failure or error when integrating individual combat system modules is negligible.

Third, our experience. 40 years ago, our company had the ability to build, at most, small corvettes. Today we are building some of the most advanced ships in the world, various classes, and we are also an experienced ship combat system integrator.

PS. Thank you so much for talking to me and I wish you the best.

The conversation was led by Mr Mirosław Ogrodniczuk

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